tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post6277700790900156437..comments2017-04-13T04:47:21.148-06:00Comments on Pro Libertate: How Trials Operate in the New Torture RegimeWilliam N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-34548292145186556152008-04-14T16:19:00.000-06:002008-04-14T16:19:00.000-06:00I want to be very clear before my next comment tha...I want to be very clear before my next comment that everybody knows that I do NOT IN ANY WAY CONDONE TORTURE.<BR/><BR/>But, actually, Mr. Griggs is wrong when he states that "Torture is a very effective means of compelling someone to submit to an official story, but entirely unreliable as a method of learning the truth." He should have said that uncolloborated information obtained under torture is an entirely unreliable method of obtaining the truth. <BR/><BR/>This is because, in fact, an interrogator's job is to entrap the interviewee into speaking his first lie. Once that is done, the interrogator has "won" and the subject will feel overwhelmed by everything the interrogator knows about him. The interregator can then slip in the questions he really wants answered, and the interviewee will not realize he's telling the interviewer what he's really after and doesn't already know. Torture, in this context, can be very effective in causing the victim to commit his first lie, thus unwittingly increasing the psychological pressure on himself when he realizes that he's been "caught out."<BR/><BR/>That being said, the best interrogators have almost universally been folks who are personable and rely on "informal" discussions to get their answers. I recommend reading the very interesting biography of Hans Scharff for more insight into this.tazmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11878128177370314187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-27925896817411768432008-04-13T16:06:00.000-06:002008-04-13T16:06:00.000-06:00Source: Washington Post The Bush administration sa...Source: Washington Post<BR/> <BR/>The Bush administration said yesterday that it plans to start using the nation's most advanced spy technology for domestic purposes soon, rebuffing challenges by House Democrats over the idea's legal authority.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said his department will activate his department's new domestic satellite surveillance office in stages, starting as soon as possible with traditional scientific and homeland security activities -- such as tracking hurricane damage, monitoring climate change and creating terrain maps.<BR/><BR/>Sophisticated overhead sensor data will be used for law enforcement once privacy and civil rights concerns are resolved, he said. The department has previously said the program will not intercept communications.<BR/><BR/>"There is no basis to suggest that this process is in any way insufficient to protect the privacy and civil liberties of Americans," Chertoff wrote to Reps. Bennie G. Thompson (D-Miss.) and Jane Harman (D-Calif.), chairmen of the House Homeland Security Committee and its intelligence subcommittee, respectively, in letters released yesterday.<BR/><BR/>"I think we've fully addressed anybody's concerns," Chertoff added in remarks last week to bloggers. "I think the way is now clear to stand it up and go warm on it."<BR/><BR/>His statements marked a fresh determination to operate the department's new National Applications Office as part of its counterterrorism efforts. The administration in May 2007 gave DHS authority to coordinate requests for satellite imagery, radar, electronic-signal information, chemical detection and other monitoring capabilities that have been used for decades within U.S. borders for mapping and disaster response.<BR/><BR/>But Congress delayed launch of the new office last October. Critics cited its potential to expand the role of military assets in domestic law enforcement, to turn new or as-yet-undeveloped technologies against Americans without adequate public debate, and to divert the existing civilian and scientific focus of some satellite work to security uses.<BR/><BR/>Democrats say Chertoff has not spelled out what federal laws govern the NAO, whose funding and size are classified. Congress barred Homeland Security from funding the office until its investigators could review the office's operating procedures and safeguards. The department submitted answers on Thursday, but some lawmakers promptly said the response was inadequate.<BR/><BR/>"I have had a firsthand experience with the trust-me theory of law from this administration," said Harman, citing the 2005 disclosure of the National Security Agency's domestic spying program, which included warrantless eavesdropping on calls and e-mails between people in the United States and overseas. "I won't make the same mistake. . . . I want to see the legal underpinnings for the whole program."<BR/><BR/>Thompson called DHS's release Thursday of the office's procedures and a civil liberties impact assessment "a good start." But, he said, "We still don't know whether the NAO will pass constitutional muster since no legal framework has been provided."<BR/><BR/>DHS officials said the demands are unwarranted. "The legal framework that governs the National Applications Office . . . is reflected in the Constitution, the U.S. Code and all other U.S. laws," said DHS spokeswoman Laura Keehner. She said its operations will be subject to "robust," structured legal scrutiny by multiple agenciesgroucho was a marxistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-16826438636406599672008-04-13T00:12:00.000-06:002008-04-13T00:12:00.000-06:00I had the "opportunity" last year to apply for a j...I had the "opportunity" last year to apply for a job with DHS but shook my head and realized I was going to fall for the same tentacled lies I'd been suckered into so many times long ago. I realized that out of desperation for want of employment, or simply fear, I'd be working within the belly of the beast. I'd have compromised myself again just for a buck. Government and I just don't seem to work well together in the employment arena. Better to live on the outside with a clear conscience than living on the public dime and lying to oneself.MOThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13996714804361467430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-18057424900626488622008-04-12T17:06:00.000-06:002008-04-12T17:06:00.000-06:00The whole das homeland security state is the last ...The whole das homeland security state is the last jobs justification program for the snarling snout public trough feeders. As nothing is made here anymore the only jobs are in prisons, wall st. shell games, das homeland 'vee vill keep u safe' hype or worthless mba programs complete with burger world hat and "do you want fries with that shake" diploma.goose steppers can't dancenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-70336270516372306422008-04-10T09:06:00.000-06:002008-04-10T09:06:00.000-06:00... was Hitler's chauffeur prosecuted at Nuremberg...<I>... was Hitler's chauffeur prosecuted at Nuremberg?</I><BR/><BR/>Once upon a time, while well on my way to my master's in history, I made the mistake of chosing to research the life and death of Irma Grese. Seems some people are capable of making up the most outrageous lies about others in order to make political gains, even if those stories result in the death of that person. How much easier life could be if we would simply believe the fairytales like everyone else!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-45744293394725363432008-04-10T00:40:00.000-06:002008-04-10T00:40:00.000-06:00"The founding ideas of this country no longer exis..."The founding ideas of this country no longer exist." - anon<BR/><BR/>Well, one would have to first assume, and this is a stretch, that the founding "ideas" were meant to ever last in the first place. When you stop and think about the laws that were shortly put into place to stop anyone from doing to the founders what the "founders" had just done to their brethren in the name of "freedom"... you get the creepy feeling that one gang of criminals was booted out to make way for another.<BR/><BR/>"Last Sunday.... his wife commented, "The culture is against us."<BR/><BR/>Isn't that telling you something! The church isn't influencing the culture. It has been co-opted and now operates as the department of religious obedience and subservience beholden to secular government.<BR/><BR/>"We were all taught in school about the glorious revolution of 1776..."<BR/><BR/>See top comment. It bears repeating.<BR/><BR/>"By today's standards, merely signing an updated Declaration of Independence calling for armed revolt.... etc."<BR/><BR/>There again... So what exactly was the purpose of this purported "revolution"? If we are not allowed to exercise the very same "rights" today that the founders claimed from the beginning then it's all an evil farce and we owe the British an apology. History has shown that bullets bombs and bayonets are the usual remedy for folks who stray off the reservation.MOThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13996714804361467430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-31771655310949347552008-04-09T21:12:00.000-06:002008-04-09T21:12:00.000-06:00"The question which torments me is whether a liber..."The question which torments me is whether a liberty-loving culture exists anywhere on the planet today. Evidently it does, in the libertarian world of cyberspace. Like-minded people abound, and we meet on Will Grigg's electronic stoop. But I can't jump through the screen and stay there." - Anon<BR/><BR/>Yes, I've contemplated this dilemma myself many times. I still would like to believe that given the opportunity many or most would choose a liberty based society but they no longer know of or could recognize it.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I agree that libertarian thinkers offer a great deal of hope an optimism. The biggest problem, and greatest asset, though is the principle of non-aggression and self ownership. It is very difficult for this libertarian mind to wrap itself around the idea that to restore the ideals of liberty one will probably very well have to violate non-aggression and self-ownership to restore an environment where liberty might have an opportunity to exist again. <BR/><BR/>It is sad indeed to resign oneself to the reality that logic and reason have no place and to restore liberty will probably require the hanging of a bureaucrat from every lamp pole available. I doubt anything less can possibly succeed. <BR/><BR/>And if we were to do so - would we become that which we seek to eliminate? A paradox to be sure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-37459767814700773882008-04-09T10:01:00.000-06:002008-04-09T10:01:00.000-06:00US attorney Glen Suddaby who prosecuted Imam Aref ...US attorney Glen Suddaby who prosecuted Imam Aref was rewarded by president Bush and Senator Schumer with a nomination to become a Federal Judge. Suddaby prosecuted several high profile Muslims like Dr. Rafil Dhafir, re-tried activists like the St.Pats 4 after they were acquitted by a local jury, he has aggressively used Ricco laws to prosecute young black men in Albany and Syracuse. To learn more go to: www.LoyalBushie.org<BR/>madis sennermadis sennerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11542103505479015230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-90396509556166618892008-04-09T09:08:00.000-06:002008-04-09T09:08:00.000-06:00I guess I should mention that I found out about bo...I guess I should mention that I found out about both you and Goyette from listening to Scott Horton's AntiWar radio podcast (Despite being initially put-off by the name; I was still blindly following the "conservative" script put out by the Rushs & Hannitys at the time. Boy, am I a sucker...). I put in a request for a fresh appearance by you in that forum, as well. <BR/><BR/>In case anyone hasn't heard Horton's show; he can get a bit salty at times. Excellent show in any case (you should listen to his interview with Mike Gravel the other day--freaking hysterical, I tell ya!). As one person on his blog mentioned, you can learn more about what's <B>actually</B> happening in the world in a 2hr pirate radio show than a month of the MSM version of the "news".<BR/><BR/>Suffice to say, I find myself much better informed listening to Goyette and Horton, and your frequent appearances on Dr. Stan's show, than was the case under Rush & Company's tender ministrations.<BR/><BR/>I'd make one last recommendation to all for blog-cruising: Vox Day's site @ http://voxday.blogspot.com/<BR/><BR/>I think everyone will find lots of like-minded liberty-lovers there. And lots of one-liners and arguments, too.JohnShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13489107681158170826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-81558133511864786552008-04-09T08:23:00.000-06:002008-04-09T08:23:00.000-06:00"The founding ideas of this country no longer exis..."The founding ideas of this country no longer exist." - anon<BR/><BR/>Last Sunday, while the bishop of our church was visiting, we asked him why the church is not taking a more public stance against the war. After he mentioned a couple of recent statements, his wife commented, "The culture is against us."<BR/><BR/>We were all taught in school about the glorious revolution of 1776, and the ringing words of the Declaration of Independence. It is really hard to accept that by today's standards, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and George Washington were TERRORISTS. <BR/><BR/>By today's standards, merely signing an updated Declaration of Independence calling for armed revolt against the usurper USGOV, would be grounds for arresting every signer under the PATRIOT act, for terrorist conspiracy. Bush would decide whether they would face civilian trials or military commissions.<BR/><BR/>This is not a liberty-loving culture. I say it with sadness, not glee. But it isn't. The question which torments me is whether a liberty-loving culture exists anywhere on the planet today. Evidently it does, in the libertarian world of cyberspace. Like-minded people abound, and we meet on Will Grigg's electronic stoop. But I can't jump through the screen and stay there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-51928607108920236072008-04-09T08:16:00.000-06:002008-04-09T08:16:00.000-06:00Thanks, johns! It was very kind of you to make the...Thanks, johns! It was very kind of you to make the suggestion to Charles. Referring to him as the "anti-Hannity" -- just as we call some medicines antibiotics -- is quite apt: Charles is witty, articulate, principled, informative, polite, and brave -- the exact opposite of the traits displayed by the Lemur-browed ignoramus.<BR/><BR/>I've been an admirer of Charles for several years -- ever since he was cast out by the Clear Channel in Phoenix (despite having the best drive-time ratings) for daring to oppose the Iraq War. He's an authentic media hero, in my estimation.William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-38864132899734638502008-04-09T07:52:00.000-06:002008-04-09T07:52:00.000-06:00Nice job on Charles Goyette's show this morning Wi...Nice job on Charles Goyette's show this morning Will. I'm hopeful my request for you to appear might have influenced the decision to have you as a guest (but surely I'm not the only one making the suggestion to him)... I thought his affirmative response email might have been a "yeah, sure kid; now scram..."<BR/><BR/>I encourage everyone to listen to Goyette's show on:<BR/>http://www.1100kfnx.com/<BR/><BR/>He's like the anti-Hannity. Good showing Will, keep it up.JohnShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13489107681158170826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-42414499838011865362008-04-09T07:35:00.000-06:002008-04-09T07:35:00.000-06:00While I do not agree with torture in the slightest...While I do not agree with torture in the slightest, what I am about to say comes in the interest of right logic. I would like to point out that by the time Hitler's chauffeur had ever been tracked down, Hitler was dead. If Hitler were on the run, I'm sure his chauffeur would be (how would the badgethugs say it?) a "Person of interest," who would know the comings and goings of the person he drove. <BR/><BR/>As far as the government knows, apparently, Bin Laden is not dead yet. Not that they seem to care whether he is or not, of course. But his chauffeur might be a source of information on his whereabouts, places he has been, and contacts. <BR/><BR/>That said, torture is an animalistic act. I found this article on an otherwise somewhat nationalist website. http://www.centerforajustsociety.com/press/forum.asp?nav=publications&cjsForumID=1069 <BR/>Seems to make a decent argument against torture, with a Christian bent. <BR/><BR/><BR/>-Sans AuthoritasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-78894667572082452512008-04-09T06:52:00.000-06:002008-04-09T06:52:00.000-06:00"then we might as well grant the Torture Regime's ..."then we might as well grant the Torture Regime's obvious wish and do away with civilian courts outright"<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, this has been the case for some time. There is no justice in ameriKa's justice system - only pre-ordained outcomes (as anyone who has ever been through experience of our kangaroo family courts can tell you). And, with the plea-bargaining ruse, I suspect much the same in the criminal courts.<BR/><BR/>The founding ideas of this country no longer exist as the people have become ignorant and uneducated. Now we have the velvet glove and iron fist mentality. When enough people fall under the yoke of Leviathan maybe we will rise up and destroy it. One can always dream . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-80797578982734344422008-04-08T22:27:00.000-06:002008-04-08T22:27:00.000-06:00I found out personally some time ago that juries a...I found out personally some time ago that juries are nothing but the prosecution's and/or judge's yes-people. They nod their head in serious affirmation that they will consider all matters in determining truth...until it gets to 4:30 pm and dinner calls.<BR/><BR/>Jurists are fairly representative of the "sheeple" population. Jury nullification, which should occur quite frequently, is an unknown tool of the jury, and if mentioned in the selection process, will earn instant dismissal.<BR/><BR/>If, God forbid, I find myself in a situation again, I will NEVER opt for a jury trial. I saw very vividly how the sheeple were led to pasture and came to a "compromise" verdict which was no compromise at all, but merely a "lesser" degree of "guilty". <BR/><BR/>The sheeple have lost the ability to think, reason and stand up for what is truly and lawfully "right".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-56819605605275346502008-04-08T21:42:00.000-06:002008-04-08T21:42:00.000-06:00Richard Pryor look-alike and accused limo driver f...<I>Richard Pryor look-alike and accused limo driver for Osama bin Laden.</I><BR/><BR/>If we can keep a sense of humor despite the Commissars then we haven't lost.<BR/><BR/>A man I respect and admire writing in another context surely foresaw this Gitmo version of America:<BR/><BR/>"The government's approach to the Waco confrontation--shoot in haste and invent a justification at leisure--is that of the police state. Once the precipitate assault on the sect had resulted in deaths, the government claimed that those deaths justified the raid, in spite of the fact that the raid had caused those deaths." Grigg notes that while in a free society "laws are relatively few and easily understood," in a totalitarian police state "laws are plentiful and frequently unintelligible, and the state can intervene at whim into a person's private affairs."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-53019775595868840062008-04-08T21:03:00.000-06:002008-04-08T21:03:00.000-06:00wow.wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-35261282715112807712008-04-08T20:34:00.000-06:002008-04-08T20:34:00.000-06:00Sometimes I wonder why I even read your blog. Asi...Sometimes I wonder why I even read your blog. Aside from the well crated prose I just get angry and want to break things.<BR/><BR/>I suppose faith that there is justice in the universe and that God is not mocked, at least not for long, is the best I can hope for at this stage of the game.Inibohttp://isilion.blogsome.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-87225936618695175072008-04-08T18:01:00.000-06:002008-04-08T18:01:00.000-06:00"Was Hitler's chauffeur prosecuted at Nuremberg?"T..."Was Hitler's chauffeur prosecuted at Nuremberg?"<BR/><BR/>Touché!<BR/><BR/>It makes me wonder ... who is Dick Cheney's chauffeur? Could I impersonate him for a day?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-88162764790688022982008-04-08T17:48:00.000-06:002008-04-08T17:48:00.000-06:00Reading the interview with Mr Aref I was struck by...Reading the interview with Mr Aref I was struck by his joy and peace, considering all he has and will continue to face. I hope that in my own life such radiance will begin to be seen - especially as times become tougher and the harsh reality of the times cause hopes and dreams to evaporate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com