tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post2851312441652601694..comments2017-04-13T04:47:21.148-06:00Comments on Pro Libertate: A Genocidal War to "Prevent" Genocide?William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-65714749972564990002007-03-22T15:57:00.000-06:002007-03-22T15:57:00.000-06:00Israel has never threatened to destroy Iran. It ha...Israel has never threatened to destroy Iran. <BR/>It harbors no hatred of the Persian people. Quite the opposite. The current President of Israel, Moishe Katsav, is a Persian Jew. <BR/><BR/>Historically, Persians and Jews have gotten along. The first man called a "messiah" in the bible is Cyrus the Great of Persia, who allowed the Jews to return from Babylonian exile. While Israel was ethnically cleansed by the Romans and Byzantines, Jews looked to Persia for salvation right up until 619CE.<BR/><BR/>AFter 1948, Iran had friendly relations with Israel. The only problem was the rising power of the Islamists. When they took over Khomeni and his followers declared war on both the Great Satan (the US) and the Little Satan (Israel).<BR/><BR/>And Ahmadenejad wants to destroy both Israel and the US. Allowing a radical Twelver Shi'ite, a man who holds that a reign of destruction will bring the Mahdi, to have nuclear weapons is suicidal.<BR/>These people wil gladely trade Tehran for Washignton and Jerusalem. They believe that the Mahdi will come and repair Tehran and kill all the Jews and Christians who don't convert.RonLhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14153955273265055016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-80933439744054596262007-02-07T08:37:00.000-07:002007-02-07T08:37:00.000-07:00kishnevi, my essay did make mention (by way of quo...kishnevi, my essay did make mention (by way of quoting Dr. Cotler) of Tehran's threats against Israel. Ahmadenijad's tongue may be writing his nation's obituary, assuming that his more incendiary statements have been reported accurately.William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-28005389922421968362007-02-07T08:32:00.000-07:002007-02-07T08:32:00.000-07:00D.D. -- First of all, I'm nicking your neologism "...D.D. -- First of all, I'm nicking your neologism "Demonocracy" -- the official ruling ideology of pandemonium, as it were.<br /><br />One thing I've neglected to clarify, apparently, is my conviction that the individual is always and ultimately responsible for his moral choices, and this emphatically includes acquiescence in the evil deeds done in his name by that element of society we call the State. <br /><br />If I really believed that the State's role somehow absolves the common man of such responsibility, I wouldn't be such an inexhaustible fountain of complaint, since protesting the injustices I write about would be as pointless as circulating a petition to repeal the law of gravity. <br /><br />I'll offer a few unfortunately half-digested thoughts in response to your provocative questions: <br /><br />Among the manifold tragedies of mass democracy is the fact that an impassioned plurality, or even minority, can win the support or passive consent of the majority, and thereby lead the entire polity to ruin (Madison, like many of his colleagues, had a lot to say on this subject). <br /><br />I'm reluctant to say that ANY of the ruling classes in the Middle East reflect the "aggregate ... commoner mindset" in any consistent sense. (This may be particularly true of the Israelis, since as my Jewish friends constantly remind me, if you gather a group of three Jews together, you'll hear at least ten opinions.) <br /><br />Yes, it's likely that most commoners in Israel have, at some time, fallen prey to the notion that all Arabs should be exterminated, and that most of their Iranian and Palestinian counterparts have played host to similar notions about the Israelis as well. But this is generally an ephemeral impulse of the sort that comes natural to the fallen flesh.<br /><br />Successful democrats find ways of refining those impulses into a political propellant. Once thrust into power they claim a mandate to act on those same impulses, and take care to cultivate the most militant constituencies through plundered largesse. <br /><br />Arafat was a MASTER of this game: As PA Chairman, most of Arafat's waking hours were devoted to bribery -- redirecting foreign aid to this or that grouplet, trying to keep his coalition together through money as well as murder. <br /><br />Bush and Company play exactly the same game, with infinitely greater resources. <br /><br />The point of mass democracy, since Rousseau, is to convince the ruled that the State (as embodied in a suitable figurehead) represents the General Will. How successful is this? Well, how often do opponents of the Iraq war like myself slip up and refer to "our" war, and what "we" are doing? I catch and correct myself in this respect probably at least a couple of times each day.William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-7879074709962686402007-02-06T22:01:00.000-07:002007-02-06T22:01:00.000-07:00You leave out the fact that the president of Iran ...You leave out the fact that the president of Iran has publicly called for destruction of Israel, has in public statements approved the use of nuclear bombs on Israel, and supported genocide aimed at Israel--as well as support, through money, weapons, and public endorsement, the random murder of Israelis. The Holocaust conference is actually irrelevant to this. He is quite clearly guilty of inciting genocide. That does not justify attacking Iran, but the fact that he is inciting genocide is fairly clear. The only real question is his ability to turn those threats and incitements into actual attempts.<br /><br />I speak as a person who has several members of my social network--relatives, friends, relatives of friends, and friends of relatives--who live in Israel and perceive themselves as directly threatened by Iranian weapons and Iranian back terrorists.kishnevinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-41057326839753517162007-02-06T15:10:00.000-07:002007-02-06T15:10:00.000-07:00I suppose what you're saying, Dixie, is that gener...<I>I suppose what you're saying, Dixie, is that generalities, in whomevers hand, can be used to paint anyone as the enemy.</I><br /><br />Yes DrFix, precisely.<br /><br />But in addition the salient point throughout is that it rains on ALL and the sun shines on ALL. Most people think in terms of groups (or nations) and everyone so identified with said group (or nation) is a target.<br /><br />Repercussions, consequences, and/or rewards of actions are not limited to those who literally plan and perpetrate them.<br /><br />Discrimination should always be a part of everyone's decision making process, but sigh..."that's e-v-i-l"...our PC culture would claim. So, is it any wonder that often ALL who just happen to be a member of a group, race, religion, or ethnicity, and by extension nation, suffer accordingly?<br /> <br />You don't see Palestinians only attacking agents of "the Jewish State" in Israel, like soldiers or government officials, they attack and kill any otherwise innocent Jewish men, women, and children. Are there Jews who don't agree with their State's public pronouncements or positions? Sure, there are.<br /><br />The Israelis likewise, in retaliation for continuous attacks upon their civilians, also often fail to discriminate and level an entire building or a group of residential dwellings in a given Palestinian neighborhood. Were there a few otherwise innocent Arabs who didn't agree with their respective State's message about Jews and Israel? Who didn't attack Jews? Who don't kill Jews with abandon? Sure there are, but...ditto what I said in the previous post.<br /><br />It's bizarre, but it's reality.<br /><br />I personally don't agree with these views either. But wherever I go I'd be looked upon as a caracature of "Amerika" regardless.<br /><br />When I was stationed in Germany in the latter 1980s, the aggregate Germans always would refer to me as "Yank" or "Ami." Well "Ami" didn't bother me as that is merely slang for "American" (not "Army" as some USAFE airmen mistakenly believed at the time...hehe) in the abstract.<br /><br />But "Yank" on the other hand would just wilt my ears (arrgh!). I'd tell them that I hailed from the South and was absolutely not by any stretch a damn Yank! They laughed...but again groupthink prevails unfortunately. After all, I was an agent of "the State" back then :P so I guess I could not blame them.<br /><br />Likewise, insurance companies don't discriminate between crap drivers and good drivers when you're a youngster. You're automatically labeled a crap driver and suffer high rates accordingly regardless of your driving record.<br /><br />And on...and on...and on...it goes.dixiedoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09845646940134894119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-47138757480457491122007-02-06T12:11:00.000-07:002007-02-06T12:11:00.000-07:00I suppose what you're saying, Dixie, is that gener...I suppose what you're saying, Dixie, is that generalities, in whomevers hand, can be used to paint anyone as the enemy. You could use the Old Testament description of the pre-Noarchian world where "everyone did what they wanted to do" and damn the consequences. And we know how that ended.DrFixhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15912619928812368990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-17465917092436846952007-02-06T02:13:00.000-07:002007-02-06T02:13:00.000-07:00I agree, as is usually the case, with your basic p...I agree, as is usually the case, with your basic premise, but like with almost all your posts involving drugs, the Christian right, etc. as those things relate to "the State," the problem is that it brings forth the trolls out of the woodwork who will no doubt claim you to be a bone fide champion of their pet cause or view.<br /><br />Anyway, allow me please to get to the nuts, bolts, and grit of it right away. First off, a few basic questions need to be answered:<br /><br />A.) What makes you think that the Israeli government mindset doesn't jive with their respective aggregate ordinary commoner mindset? <br /><br />B.) What makes you think the Iranian government mindset doesn't jive with their respective commoner mindset?<br /><br />C.) And on Arabs, I think the Arab commoners in the Palestinian territories voted for Hamas not too long ago. Does Hamas not represent the aggregate Arab commoner mindset?<br /><br />(Of course, I believe "voting" has nothing to do with genuine freedom and liberty and is merely a way of showing subservience to the figure(s) or respresentative(s) YOU as an individual <I>believe</I> should reign and represent authority over YOU, but that's another subject for another time.)<br /><br />As for me, I'd answer respectively: Nothing, nothing, and emphatically no! for those three. How 'bout you?<br /><br />These are critical questions, Will, and I'd be interested in what your answer would be.<br /><br />This brings up another line of thinking I harbor against this utopian "we're spreading freedom and demonocracy [sic]" thinking regardless of where it originates or from whom it originates - the so-called "Christian Right," the neocons in government, the Israeli government, the Israeli people, Ami Jews - it matters not. That is this unrealistic view that we can somehow manage to spread genuine freedom around the M.E., or spreading so-called "democracy," or other nonsense. Heck, they already enjoy democracy or mobocracy!<br /><br />The reality is this place and its people have never known a genuine republican form of government or, for that matter, a representative democracy! They swear by power, they live by force, their worldview is Islam and that's how their leaders <I>and aggregate commoners</I> think and live!<br /><br />As my answers to those previous three questions would clearly indicate, I believe demonocracy [sic] itself indeed does work spectacularly in these countries! Gee, do not totalitarian paradises anywhere have 100% or near 100% voter participation? Do those states not act, or attempt to act in some fashion, on behalf of their respective commoners' worldviews? About Israel? About the "Great Satan"? Of course, they do!<br /><br />And as for we being able to <I>compel</I> them to swallow our way of thinking, which is itself misguided, depraved, and naturally secular, and certainly not republican in any Founder's sense of the word, I don't think can possibly ever be expected to succeed <I>peacefully</I>. Enforcing a foreign (our) mindset, falsely claiming it as "freedom," upon these folk is simply insanity, no matter the terms it's cloaked in. It cannot and won't work.<br /><br />To summarize, I agree with your premise here, but I have to use the broad brush when characterizing the various and sundry folk involved, whereas you're distinguishing between "the State," tied to all of them, and the various distinct "commoners" or citizens in question. No, the Iraqis, the Israelis, the Iranians, the Americans (be they the "Christian Right," atheist Left, humanists, whatever) <I>and their respective governments</I>, which represent their respective citizens by <I>democratic</I> choice of those aggregate citizens, are ALL wrongheaded and will ALL pay the price for whatever transpires.<br /><br />It's unfortunate, but this is the way the inhumane, un-Christian or post-Christian, human world works, Will. America is looked upon as a single whole entity - it's government, it's culture, it's people - all as a representation of "America." Israel is likewise viewed that way. Iran is viewed that way. I'm not saying it's the <I>right</I> way to view it, necessarily, but that it nevertheless is the way nations of folk view other nations of folk. That would explain why radicals, regardless from which religion, ethnicity, or race they sprout from, can accept genocide and/or other atrocities as palpable or acceptable.<br /><br />The bottom line cold reality is that it just doesn't matter whether folk - who don't resist these insane views in some loud and overt way, or otherwise speak against them, or do not vote against them, or whatever else to show YOU as an individual are not part of the herd - are afraid to resist or not. Forget it, everyone is responsible for their chosen way, not the State. Whether the right choice brings you death or peace here and now temporally means nothing. You, on the other hand, seemingly are more apt to excuse the commoners' actions or <I>inactions</I>, in each of these groups and lay all the blame conveniently at the feet of this disconnected entity "the State."<br /><br />If I disagree with anything here, that particular would be it, I suppose ;).<br /><br />It's a hellish world, eh Will? Should that be really surprising, though? Nah, not a all.dixiedoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09845646940134894119noreply@blogger.com